Language as labeling


Re: Language as labeling

Postby Just Playing » Sun, 13 Nov 2005 05:32:55 GMT

Edgar Svendsen wrote:

I guess I am missing your point here. If there is change perceived we
have to label it, if not we don't.

In my example well-meaning people may disagree on

Actually IMO tree is an abstract concept too. The abstract terms are
basically derived from the perception based words, just that the
learning process obscures it.

Re: Language as labeling

Postby Just Playing » Sun, 13 Nov 2005 05:46:46 GMT

It resembles what I mean just that I am trying to make it as simple as
possible, but it seems that I fail to do it.

A little bit.
I will try to explain what I mean again.
We have senors that perceive information.
Each sensor perceives a different range of inputs..
If we could define and label all the information that is perceived by
each sensor, we could use these labels as building blocks for creating
words and concepts.
Nothing complex.

Re: Language as labeling

Postby Stu » Sun, 13 Nov 2005 06:28:05 GMT

On 2005-11-11 03:02:59 -0800,  XXXX@XXXXX.COM  said:

There are very different physiological components to the sort of 
consciousness I am discussing and sleep.  The physiological markers are 
also different than hypnosis.  A person in meditation still maintains 
awareness though thought is suspended.  The result is the ability to 
witness the pure state of awareness.  This allows the subject to 
effectively step out of the cognitive process and "see" the actual 
construction of the self and how the self perceives reality.  It is for 
this reason that meditation has an important place in the discussion of 

Meditation requires a disciplined repeatable approach. Experiences are 
observed and compared with other community members.  Meditation is a 
form of science.  It is a perfect adjunct to neurobiology.

The Links Between the Dalai Lama and Neuroscience

Re: Language as labeling

Postby Stu » Sun, 13 Nov 2005 06:30:58 GMT

On 2005-11-11 12:46:46 -0800, "Just Playing" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM > said:

Sounds to me you either need to go with current linguistic theories 
that break down language into systems of memes.  Or you need to wait 
for neurobiology to evolve to a point were synapse firings can be 
decoded into their specific semantic meanings.

Either way, this is out of the scope of alt.philosophy.

Re: Language as labeling

Postby Turtoni » Sun, 13 Nov 2005 06:58:59 GMT

Whatever floats your boat.. 

Re: Language as labeling

Postby mimo_545 » Sun, 13 Nov 2005 07:44:10 GMT

Have you tried Sci.Lang with this question?. I remember in a history/
antiquities lesson being given an example of biblical text, wherein
each word and suffix was highlighted with the cultural source of the
words.Its called etymology. This says two things. 1. Countries over
thousands of years have integrated with cultures from others, through
trade or marriage etc. 2. Language grows and expands, becomes
sophisticated and some languages die....but traces of them are left.
(you should try it! its good clean fun and its amazing what it tells
you about the history of your country!)

Are you really asking/searching for a syntactical structure? far
as I have searched there isn't one...(although I have theory about
this :) which I would like to work more upon) . If you are studying
ogic, I am told that Latin is so logical its like mathematics.....but
you're looking for something else.. its worth looking into lots of
different cultures, to make a comparison with the system you're
familiar with.


Re: Language as labeling

Postby Just Playing » Mon, 14 Nov 2005 05:10:14 GMT

No, I looked at that group for a while but it seems to go in a
different direction then what I am asking.

 I remember in a history/

I am not working towards anything. I just have too much time on my hand
right now and I use this as temporary hobby.
If there is anything that you consider that is helpful you are welcome
to use it and if there is any way I can help you with any ideas feel
free to contact me directly.

 If you are studying

Re: Language as labeling

Postby Just Playing » Mon, 14 Nov 2005 05:25:46 GMT

Stu wrote:

I have been busy for the last few days and I rushed my replies. I hope
you haven't lost interest in the subject meantime.
I reread your reply regarding memes and I feel that it sounds a lot
like what I am saying.
You mention the analogy of mind being like an ocean and thoughts being
bubbles, while I use digits of information for bubbles and continuum
for the ocean.
information as the primary elements that will combine to create words
and not being thoughts themselves. (You may look at these digits as
different colors, shapes, sounds, smell, tastes, etc. perceived by our
The main reason why I try to come with such a model is that it would
reduce the diversity of the language, it would show the common elements
of the words, their connections thru some combinatorial rules.
I generally see two problems in all the conversations, the first being
the number of variables people use in their presentation.
There are logical limitations in our understanding and using too many
variables in a message creates confusion as the variables can be
arranged differently by the beneficiary v. the messenger. BTW I see the
requests for simplification ("what is your point?") or the use of
analogies as methods to achieve this reduction.
The second issue is that most of us look at words as being irreducible
to something simpler, as not having common elements or using an analogy
with the prime numbers, that the words are prime numbers. BTW this is
IMO a consequence of how we learn the language.
Under these circumstances when we communicate we seem to use a lot of
words as independent variables and have a hard time combining them as
they seem by definition not to have a common ground. We reach rapidly a
point where the number of variables creates confusion and we start to
try to reduce them thru different techniques, analogies, creation of
new concepts and terms, etc.
What I suggest is that the digits of information or memes are the
equivalent of the prime numbers and their combinations create words.
This way the number of words that can be created is limited only by the
rules of combination but they are still reducible to a smaller number
of prime numbers.
Such a model could work as a frame of reference against which to map
all the words and concepts, could be a universal translator meta
The creation of such a model shouldn't be too difficult but it is way
beyond my area of expertise. I am just a guy surfing the web for fun.

Re: Language as labeling

Postby mimo_545 » Fri, 25 Nov 2005 06:21:35 GMT

How you getting on with your rules of combination? Do you
have any ideas for an implicit foundational structure/model?

Going back to one of your previous posts that mentioned the
five senses, would such a framework include the 'processing'
(real time) of sensory imputs?

I think I found a suitable platform for processing (real time)
proximity and languages thats worth working on (for me). Its
very simple. It uses info from all senses. It came to me a couple
of years back, I looked everywhere for something similar, can't,
kept putting it to the back of my mind, just bugs me every so know?

Hope all's well,

:) N.

Re: Language as labeling

Postby Just Playing » Mon, 28 Nov 2005 13:28:50 GMT

Not really. I tried to present something before in a different thread
"some thoughts about language" but that is all I can do on my own.

IMO time is essential to the model. The number of senses is not  as
important as the number of signals per time interval.

If you want me to try to challenge your ideas please post them. I will
try my best.

Everything is OK, thank you.  I have just been busy for a few days.

Re: Language as labeling

Postby mimo_545 » Tue, 29 Nov 2005 02:13:32 GMT

I'll give it some attention - .I read about something called
'ERC' recently, might be interesting to you.

Thanks!..I've a very important exam coming I'm gonna be busy
for a'll all come out-eventually I suppose, I'm just
looking into methods and modalities.


Return to AI


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 27 guest