What's wrong with a little Hack and slash

revision: I meant "hack" not "hach"


Anyway I just came back to the Pc market and bought the update on one of
my old favorites (Diablo 1 - bought II). All reviews by Rpg fans comment
on how it is okay "if you like a frenzy of mouse clicking and no
strategy". That in the Rpg world I take as a big putdown. 

The meat of Diablo is all about Item management.  For what it does,
it's an amazing game, but it needs no panegyric at this point. The
story isn't gripping, it's all combat and you basically have a single
choice to make during battles other than what weapon to use or what
spell to cast: stay and fight or run away.

Make sure to get the Zyel 1.02A mod.

    Many Rpg's don't amount to much more. I kept thinking back to classic
Rpg's like Bard's tale. Most of the time it was a series of A) A) A) A)
D)D) and maybe S) ARFL = repeat 10 million times. I mean I got so fast at
the a, d sequencing at one point I was faster that the computer could keep
up. I don't hear anyone claiming that the BT series was hack and slash. If
we're honest there was very limited strategy. 

     I happen to think that in multi-player there is some strategy with
the combination of classes on how you fight and play off one another. 


    I understand there are games/Rpg's with more strategy out there (I
always thought Wizardry was good for that) but really many games do not
suffer the same criticism as diablo (as being single-minded hacking).
Besides Diablo is essentially a level-builder. Most Rpg's incorporate a
heavy dose of level building. Heck some of my favourites (MM, Wiz, D&D to
name only a few)are heavily slanted that way.

     Besides I get a little twichty-eyed in my middle class suburban
lifestyle when I can't get a little hack and slash release :)

CHeers,

Hawklan

Problem is, back in the day games were pretty much divided into:
 - Action (anything involved twitch responses)
 - Adventure (games with lot of puzzles, no actions or stats)
 - Strategy (games where you had to think what to do next for minutes
and click 'go' to see results)
 - RPG (games with one or several characters with stats, you explored a
lot, no action involved)

Then things started to get mixed, but for the most part, it was either
*/RPG or */Action as in different things that shouldn't be mixed.  Then
Diablo came (actually Ultima Underline I&II came before) and mixed the
unmixable, Action/RPG. Problem was, it was a lot of action with a
little RPG and the RPG fans screamed 'sacrilege' when anyone said
Diablo was an RPG.
Nowadays, we're just used to it, pretty much all games have some
action, some RPG, some adventure and even some strategy in some cases.
I just call them games now

Thusly "Hawklan" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM > Spake Unto All:


Hardly any rpg's do much more.

That's my main problem with "action rpgs" - there is nothing else.
Not that there ever has been much else, it was much the same in the
"good old days", but it still annoys me.

-- 
A True Hero:  http://www.**--****.com/ 

Thusly  XXXX@XXXXX.COM  Spake Unto All:


IMO Gauntlet was the direct ancestor of Diablo, and possibly the first
real action-rpg. Action games with rpg elements weren't all that rare
(another good one, in a steampunk setting, was The Chaos Engine) and I
can't really see that Diablo was very revolutionary in that regard.


-- 
A True Hero:  http://www.**--****.com/ 

>That's my main problem with "action rpgs" - there is nothing else.

Disgaea?  There is much joy to be had at the end of a platform with a
massive marketshare's lifecycle.

"Hawklan" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM > once tried to test me with:


The problem is, there ARE games that do more. And the people that long for 
those games want more of them. Games like:


Betryal at Krondor
Ultima series, esp. Ultima VII
Fallout series
Planescape: Torment
Arcanum
Baldur's Gate II
Knights of the Old Republic series
Certain NWN scenarios
Heck, even Morrowind

These games offer MORE than just combat, they have stories that matter, and 
your characters can make MEANINGFUL choices (non-combat ones) that affect 
the outcome of the game or at least cause a different story to unfold along 
the way to the outcome. Most of them allow for m{*filter*}choices to be made 
along the way. 

I still enjoy a good hack n slash, though, Might & Magic series has always 
been one of my favorites,and of course Diablo series. But I can understand 
where the people that long for meaningful role-playing games are coming 
from. I like those games too, maybe even more than the H&S ones.

-- 

Knight37 -  http://www.**--****.com/ 

Once a Gamer, Always a Gamer.

Mean_Chlorine < XXXX@XXXXX.COM > once tried to test me 
with:


Actually Gauntlet is just an arcade game. You didn't gain levels and you 
didn't get any loot (other than potions and such). You just kept slashing 
monsters. Diablo's ancestor was the rogue-like, such as nethack, or moria, 
or rogue itself. In those games, collecting loot is the important factor 
for success, and of course, gaining levels. And that's what Diablo is all 
about. It's just a graphical, real-time combat rogue-like. I'm sure the 
designers of Diablo were influenced by Gauntlet, but I think they drew far 
more influence from the rogue-like games.


-- 

Knight37 -  http://www.**--****.com/ 

Once a Gamer, Always a Gamer.

Wasn't Crossfire real-time?  That would put it between Rogue and
Diablo.


-- 
Konrad Gaertner                         email:  XXXX@XXXXX.COM 
 http://www.**--****.com/ 

Thusly Knight37 < XXXX@XXXXX.COM > Spake Unto All:


My memory is a bit hazy, but surely you DID gain levels ( = could
upgrade your PC)? And monsters did drop loot (potions and powerups).


True, but the frantic pace is straight out of Gauntlet. Rogue-likes
are extremely slow-paced.

-- 
A True Hero:  http://www.**--****.com/ 

Konrad Gaertner < XXXX@XXXXX.COM > once tried to test me with:


Not familiar with Crossfire, what was it?

-- 

Knight37 -  http://www.**--****.com/ 

Once a Gamer, Always a Gamer.

Mean_Chlorine < XXXX@XXXXX.COM > once tried to test me
with: 


I don't remember gaining levels in the original Gauntlet. Of course, since 
you had to feed it quarters to keep playing maybe I just never got that 
far. ;)
 

Well yeah, they are turn-based, whereas Diablo made the switch to going 
real-time.

-- 

Knight37 -  http://www.**--****.com/ 

Once a Gamer, Always a Gamer.

What about the obligatory Blizzard ripoff of games workshop that every
game they make must include?

I'd say the biggest influence of Diablo was Heroquest/Advanced
Heroquest, even moreso than any PC game at the time.

 http://www.**--****.com/ 

-- 
Konrad Gaertner                         email:  XXXX@XXXXX.COM 
 http://www.**--****.com/